Drivers License Punched Void

Nov 27, 2004. I got a quick question for you cali cats. The other day I went to apply for a new drivers license because I wanted the proper address on it.

Applying for a Missouri Teen Driver's License In the state of Missouri, the driver's licensing process is regulated by the MO Department of Revenue (DOR). Teens have the opportunity to obtain a Missouri learner's permit and driver's license after meeting a series of requirements designed to foster safe, responsible decisions from new drivers behind the wheel. New to Missouri? New teen residents of Missouri under 18 years old with a valid out-of-state driver's license may transfer it and receive a MO intermediate license. However, if you are applying for a Missouri license within 30 days of your 18th birthday, you will be issued a full MO driver's license. You will need to visit your and present the following: • Your out-of-state driver's license, which must either be current or expired for no more than 184 days. • If you have lost or misplaced your out-of-state license, you must request and submit a Clearance Letter from your previous state.

• Proof of name, birth date, and birthplace (e.g. Certified U.S., U.S., certificate of citizenship). • Your Social Security num • Proof of MO residency (e.g. Paycheck, bank statement, utility bill – can be presented by your parent/guardian if you do not possess official documents). • Payment for the appropriate license fee: • Class F intermediate license (Minimum age of 16 years old): $7.50.

• Class F driver's license (Over 18 years old): $10. We have more information for new Missouri residents on our, including details on changing your address and registering your vehicle in Missouri. About the Missouri GDL Program Missouri is one of many states throughout the country that has implemented a graduated driver's licensing (GDL) program, which outlines a process of steps that teens must complete in order receive full driving privileges. In Missouri, teens must first obtain a MO learner's permit, then an intermediate driver's license, before being issued a full Missouri driver's license.

Driver's Education in Missouri Formal classroom driver's education is not required in Missouri. However, teens do have to complete 40 hours of with a qualified licensed adult or driving instructor, including 10 hours driven at night. While Missouri Driver's Ed may not be a requirement toward getting a MO driver's license, it is an unparalleled way to gain the essential education necessary to make responsible and timely decisions behind the wheel. Taking an is a good way to learn the lessons you need to know, but from your home computer on your own time and pace. MO Driver's License Age Requirements 15 years old: eligible for an instruction permit. 16 years old: eligible for an intermediate license. 18 years old: eligible for the full driver's license for drivers under 21 years old.

Missouri Instruction Permit To get an instruction permit in Missouri (also referred to as a learner's permit), you must be at least 15 years old. Before you apply for your permit, however, you must first visit a State Highway Patrol (MSHP) to take: • A vision test.

• A road signs exam. • A written knowledge test. You can prepare for these exams by studying the, but you can ensure passing on your first attempt by taking an from our approved partner. After you pass your MO permit exams, you'll receive a Driver Examination Record (Form DOR-100) indicating that you successfully passed all required tests.

With this form, visit your with your parent/guardian and: • Submit proof of name, birth date, and birthplace (e.g. Certified U.S. Birth certificate, original U.S. Passport, certificate of citizenship).

• Provide your Social Security number. • Present proof of Missouri address/residency (bank statement, paycheck, parent's utility bill). • Complete an application for a driver's license/instruction permit (available only at your MO driver license office). • Submit your Driver Examination Record (Form DOR-100). • Payment for the $3.50 permit fee. You'll receive an instruction permit that will allow you to begin your driving practice with a qualified driver (see “ Instruction Permit Driving Restrictions' below).

Your Missouri learner's permit is valid for one year from the date of issue, and you must hold your permit for a minimum of 182 days before you are eligible to apply for an intermediate driver's license. MO Instruction Permit Driving Restrictions Some of your driving restrictions while holding a Missouri instruction permit are based upon your age. Drivers under 16 years old: • May only drive with a qualified person (parent/legal guardian, licensed driving instructor) or a qualified driver at least 25 years old with at least 3 years of fully licensed driving experience who has been designated by your parent/guardian. • Your parent/guardian must complete a (Form 5434), which should be kept in the vehicle at all times. Drivers 16 years old and older: • May drive with a licensed adult at least 21 years old.

• Your supervisor must have their valid driver's license with them at all times while driving with you. Regardless of age, you must always follow the below driving restrictions: • You must always carry your MO instruction permit with you while driving. • Your supervising driver must be in the front seat. • All occupants of the vehicle must wear a seat belt at all times. • You may not carry any other passengers other than your qualified driver. Behind-the-Wheel Driving Requirements With your Missouri learner's permit, you will be required to complete 40 hours of behind-the-wheel practice, including 10 hours of practice being driven at night between sunset and sunrise.

Your parent/guardian or qualified driving instructor will need log those hours to verify compliance with GDL requirements. The Missouri DOR provides a (Form 4901) to help you and your supervisor track your practice hours. Missouri Intermediate Driver's License Once you are at least 16 years old, you're eligible to apply for an intermediate Missouri driver's license and take your behind-the-wheel road test. You must also have met the following requirements: • You must have held your learner's permit for at least 182 days. • You must have completed 40 hours of supervised driving practice, including 10 hours of night driving. • You may NOT have had any alcohol-related convictions in the previous 12 months. • You may NOT have had any traffic tickets/violations in the previous 6 months.

NOTE: If you're applying for your driver's license more than one year after taking the written and vision exams for your instruction permit, you will need to retake them again at your local State Highway Patrol examination station before applying for your intermediate driver's license. To apply for your Missouri intermediate license, visit your with your parent/guardian and submit the following: • Your valid, unexpired learner's permit. • Completed application for a MO driver's license (available only at your driver license office).

• Proof of completion for your required behind-the-wheel driving hours. • Your parent/guardian must sign the back of your license application to provide verification of your driving hours. • Proof of name, birth date, and birthplace (e.g. Certified U.S. Birth certificate, original U.S. Passport, certificate of citizenship). • Social Security number.

• Proof of Missouri address/residency (bank statement, paycheck, parent's utility bill). • Payment for the $7.50 license fee. You will also need to bring and for the vehicle you will be taking your road test in. Your examiner will give you specific instructions for your road test, which you must pass with a score of 70% or higher. You will receive a temporary intermediate driver's license, and should receive your actual intermediate license in the mail within 10 business days. MO Intermediate License Driving Restrictions While you may now drive unsupervised in Missouri, you must still adhere to the following restrictions until you are 18 years old: • You must always carry your intermediate license with you while driving.

• You may not drive between 1 a.m. And 5 a.m., unless you're accompanied by a licensed driver at least 21 years old, OR you are traveling from school, work, or due to an emergency.

• You and your passengers must wear seat belts at all times. • For the first 6 months, you may only have one passenger under 19 years old in your vehicle who is not an immediate family member. • After the first 6 months, you may only have up to 3 passengers under 19 years old in your vehicle who are not immediate family members.

Full Missouri Driver's License (Under 21) To upgrade to your full Missouri driver's license, you must be at least 18 years old, and you may not have had any traffic tickets or alcohol-related violations within the 12 months prior to applying. NOTE: If you are applying for your Missouri driver's license at 18 years old without having gone through the GDL process listed above, you'll need to take the vision, written, and road sign exams at a State Highway Patrol examination center before applying. You will also be required to take a road test at the driver license office.

For details, please see our. To apply, visit your local driver license office and: • Present your valid Missouri intermediate driver's license. • Provide proof of name, birth date, and birthplace (e.g. Certified U.S. Birth certificate, original U.S. Passport, certificate of citizenship).

• Provide your Social Security number. • Submit proof of Missouri address/residency (bank statement, paycheck, parent's utility bill). • Pay the $10 MO driver's license fee. You will receive a temporary Missouri driver's license that will be attached to your intermediate license, and your intermediate license will be punched “VOID.'

Your permanent MO driver's license should arrive in the mail within 10 business days. Follow our to track and share your progress. Missouri Teen Car Insurance You must have auto insurance to legally drive throughout the state of Missouri. The type of insurance you require will depend upon what kind of permit or license you're currently driving with, and will change as you gain more personal responsibility on the road. Adding a teen driver to a family policy has the potential to significantly increase that policy's rates, so it's important to to find the rate that best fits your needs. MO Instruction Permit Insurance When driving with an instruction permit in Missouri, it is likely that you are covered under the auto insurance of your supervising driver. However, this may not always be the case, so make sure to check your supervising driver's policy to find out if you're covered while driving with them.

If not, either they must change their policy, add you to their policy, or you must find an alternative supervising driver whose auto insurance policy covers you. MO Intermediate & Full Driver's License Insurance You must show proof of insurance when applying for your driver's license and taking your road test. You can obtain your own auto insurance if you choose, or you can ask your parent to add you to the family policy. There may be opportunities for you and your family to qualify for discounts from your insurance company—whether by signing up for a new policy, adding yourself to your parents' policy, or by exploring other options. For more information about discounts, rates, and coverage, visit the following pages: MO Teen Motorcycle & Moped Licenses You are eligible to apply for a Missouri motorcycle permit when you are 15 1/2 years old. All applicants under 16 years old must first complete a state-approved Motorcycle Rider Training Course (MRTC) before applying.

You must follow all GDL requirements and steps listed above to obtain your permit, plus pass a Class M written motorcycle exam and pay the $6.25 Class M permit fee. Teens under 16 years old with a Class M motorcycle permit must follow the below restrictions: • You may not ride with any passengers. • Your motorcycle may have an engine no bigger than 250 cc. • You may only drive within 50 miles from your residence. • You may only ride during daylight (i.e. You may NOT drive from 30 minutes after sunset to 30 minutes before sunrise). If you choose not to take the MRTC, you must be at least 16 years old before applying for a motorcycle permit.

Your permit fee will be $3.50. Your Class M permit is only temporary, and is valid for 6 months. Once you feel you have obtained enough riding practice, you may go to your local driver license office to obtain your Class M motorcycle endorsement and take your on-cycle riding exam. NOTE: If you DO NOT already have your Class F intermediate license, you will be required to also take the Class F written exam and behind-the-wheel driving test.

More details and information on obtaining a motorcycle license in Missouri can be found on our. Driver Examination Record - DOR-100 Driving test record you must submit to the Department of Revenue when applying for your first permit or MO driver's license. Must be completed by the Missouri State Highway Patrol. • • Driver Experience Log - 4901 Use this form to log the practice driving hours needed to earn a Missouri driver's license. • • Parent or Guardian Permission Statement - 5434 Parents/legal guardians: Use this DOR form to give a qualifying adult permission to provide driving instruction to a new teen driver.

Last week I had to add a tanker endorsement to my CDL and the guy at the DMV punched a hole in my license. Yesterday I stopped by turners to 'check' out the c39v2. A new shipment just came in after being on back order for 4 months.

I decided to buy it. Handing over my license I saw the hole and I was hoping they wouldn't notice but the guy did and he wouldn't let me go any further with the DROS. I did put a deposit on the rifle and I'm hoping my license will get here soon. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk. Last week I had to add a tanker endorsement to my CDL and the guy at the DMV punched a hole in my license. Yesterday I stopped by turners to 'check' out the c39v2. A new shipment just came in after being on back order for 4 months.

I decided to buy it. Handing over my license I saw the hole and I was hoping they wouldn't notice but the guy did and he wouldn't let me go any further with the DROS. I did put a deposit on the rifle and I'm hoping my license will get here soon. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk so you tried to purchase a firearm, with a license that you knew was invalid?:facepalm. The reason DMV punches your driver's license is because they were issuing you a new one and it is unlawful to possess two driver's licenses.

They most likely issued you a temporary paper license (you did not indicate one way or the other). The temporary paper one is valid and in combination with the punched old photo license is valid for any purpose a California Driver's License is valid for. Below is the Vehicle Code section which I referred to.

No person shall have in his or her possession or otherwise under his or her control more than one driver's license. The reason DMV punches your driver's license is because they were issuing you a new one and it is unlawful to possess two driver's licenses. They most likely issued you a temporary paper license (you did not indicate one way or the other). The temporary paper one is valid and in combination with the punched old photo license is valid for any purpose a California Driver's License is valid for.

Below is the Vehicle Code section which I referred to. No person shall have in his or her possession or otherwise under his or her control more than one driver's license. The old ID plus paper is only good for driving. It can not be used for any other purpose. The paper specifically says this.

Source: I own a bar and have taken multiple classes with CA ABC. The old ID plus paper is only good for driving.

It can not be used for any other purpose. The paper specifically says this. Source: I own a bar and have taken multiple classes with CA ABC Why would this be a concern to ABC? Does someone suddenly lose 5 years when a hole is punched in their CDL? If so, someone punch mine a few times:D Firearms purchases I can understand because in addition to identification it is also proof of residence. But if it has a hole punched, then it obviously was not revoked/suspended (would have been confiscated), and that hole doesn't change a person's age or identity.

You don't make the rules. But questions to ask at the next class;). Why would this be a concern to ABC? Does someone suddenly lose 5 years when a hole is punched in their CDL? If so, someone punch mine a few times:D Firearms purchases I can understand because in addition to identification it is also proof of residence. But if it has a hole punched, then it obviously was not revoked/suspended (would have been confiscated), and that hole doesn't change a person's age or identity. You don't make the rules.

But questions to ask at the next class;) Nope your CDL is not proof of residence, but you must gave a valid livense to purchase. Why would this be a concern to ABC? Does someone suddenly lose 5 years when a hole is punched in their CDL?

If so, someone punch mine a few times:D Firearms purchases I can understand because in addition to identification it is also proof of residence. But if it has a hole punched, then it obviously was not revoked/suspended (would have been confiscated), and that hole doesn't change a person's age or identity. You don't make the rules. But questions to ask at the next class;) They don't always confiscate it when it's suspended. Use your passport book or passport card for ID, and a vehicle registration or utility bill to prove residency.

About a month ago I bought a firearm (PPT) and they would not accept: 1. My vehicle registration because they were both renewals (I had just renewed both vehicles) - it's the same address as my license - nor 2. Either of my most recent utility bills (gas & electric) because I had used the bottom parts to pay the bills (you rip off the bottom and send it back with your check) - even though my name, address and dates of the bill are clearly visible on the remaining portion.

Then the youngster behind the counter (must have been his 21st b'day and 1st day of work - or at least he looked it) commented on my veteran's cap saying he wished he could have joined but he has flat feet or something. While I was filling out all the paperwork. I wasn't paying much attention, I was waiting for the other clerk to check with his boss about the utility bills and vehicle registration. My wallet is on the counter with CCW clearly visible and right next to my CDL which is out of the wallet along with the FSC and I just completed filling out all the paperwork and he asks me if I'm ready to perform the safe handling demonstration. Boudoir Photography Guide Excellence Pdf To Jpg on this page.

I just smile and say, no, I'd like to wait and see if your boss is going to give the ok to the vehicle registrations and utility bills. So he goes over to check on the other clerk. Then comes back and says they're still discussing the utility bills and registration (I have no idea what the discussion entailed, but it seemed long for a yes / no decision). So he says, while we wait you can do the safe handling demonstration. Again, I smile and say, thanks, not right now. Then he says, you'll have to do it anyway, so why not just get it over with? And again, I just smile and say, not right now, thanks.

Finally, the other clerk comes back and tells me they can't accept either recent utility bill because the bottom part (the part you return with your payment) is missing and they can't accept vehicle registrations because they're both renewals. I said, ok, no problem, I'll just bring it with me when I pick up the pistol. So 1st clerk takes all the paperwork and is about to ring me up when the 2nd clerk tells him, you can't ring him up yet, he hasn't done the safe handling demonstration and he doesn't have a lock. So I just tell him that I'll bring a newly purchased lock, the utility bills, and do the safe handling demo when I pick up the firearm. He looks confused and the 1st clerk rings me up and I leave. When I went to pick it up, a different clerk was there, I pull out my CDL, FSC, lock+receipt, paperwork, bills and again put my wallet on the counter with the CCW clearly visible. He glances, asks me if I wan't a copy of the DROS, I said, 'sure' and off I go.

I guess it all depends who you get. About a month ago I bought a firearm (PPT) and they would not accept: 1. My vehicle registration because they were both renewals (I had just renewed both vehicles) - it's the same address as my license - nor 2.

Either of my most recent utility bills (gas & electric) because I had used the bottom parts to pay the bills (you rip off the bottom and send it back with your check) - even though my name, address and dates of the bill are clearly visible on the remaining portion. Then the youngster behind the counter (must have been his 21st b'day and 1st day of work - or at least he looked it) commented on my veteran's cap saying he wished he could have joined but he has flat feet or something.

While I was filling out all the paperwork. I wasn't paying much attention, I was waiting for the other clerk to check with his boss about the utility bills and vehicle registration. My wallet is on the counter with CCW clearly visible and right next to my CDL which is out of the wallet along with the FSC and I just completed filling out all the paperwork and he asks me if I'm ready to perform the safe handling demonstration. I just smile and say, no, I'd like to wait and see if your boss is going to give the ok to the vehicle registrations and utility bills. So he goes over to check on the other clerk. Then comes back and says they're still discussing the utility bills and registration (I have no idea what the discussion entailed, but it seemed long for a yes / no decision).

So he says, while we wait you can do the safe handling demonstration. Again, I smile and say, thanks, not right now.

Then he says, you'll have to do it anyway, so why not just get it over with? And again, I just smile and say, not right now, thanks. Finally, the other clerk comes back and tells me they can't accept either recent utility bill because the bottom part (the part you return with your payment) is missing and they can't accept vehicle registrations because they're both renewals. I said, ok, no problem, I'll just bring it with me when I pick up the pistol. So 1st clerk takes all the paperwork and is about to ring me up when the 2nd clerk tells him, you can't ring him up yet, he hasn't done the safe handling demonstration and he doesn't have a lock. So I just tell him that I'll bring a newly purchased lock, the utility bills, and do the safe handling demo when I pick up the firearm.

He looks confused and the 1st clerk rings me up and I leave. When I went to pick it up, a different clerk was there, I pull out my CDL, FSC, lock+receipt, paperwork, bills and again put my wallet on the counter with the CCW clearly visible.

He glances, asks me if I wan't a copy of the DROS, I said, 'sure' and off I go. I guess it all depends who you get. Perhaps you should have actually handed that clerk your CCW license and used that as your Proof of Residency. And, perhaps the clerk wasn't being nosy so he didn't focus on the fact that you had a CCW exposed in your wallet (has that clerk even seen a CCW from your county/city before?) and that you were FSC-exempt and SHD-exempt. Why even have an FSC if you are already FSC-exempt, unless you got your CCW after you got the FSC? That is what I will be doing next time. Right before the DMV lady punched mine she said what she was going to do and when I questioned it she insisted that the punched license with the paper was good for everything a license was good for.

I didn't know better at the time so I said fine. A couple decades ago I was asked to surrender my license. I told them I didn't have it with me and immediately fled the country for two years. I used the suspended license to rent cars overseas during that time until I returned home and duly handed over the license to the DMV. No one cared. Many moons ago I was refused entry to a bar due to an expired DL. I was maybe 22 and went off on the bouncer mostly because I was with a work party and was very embarrassed which didn't help me look any better.

To this day I think that's BS x100. Some how I'm not 22 anymore because my DL is expired???

Yea what ever!! Oh wait CA has another STUPID law. My truck passed the emissions part of the smog test but the check engine lights on so they failed me, WTF is that about??

Either I'm polluting the air or I'm not, What does a light on my dashboard have to do with that. Many moons ago I was refused entry to a bar due to an expired DL. I was maybe 22 and went off on the bouncer mostly because I was with a work party and was very embarrassed which didn't help me look any better. To this day I think that's BS x100. Some how I'm not 22 anymore because my DL is expired??? Yea what ever!!

Oh wait CA has another STUPID law. My truck passed the emissions part of the smog test but the check engine lights on so they failed me, WTF is that about?? Either I'm polluting the air or I'm not, What does a light on my dashboard have to do with that. Whats even dumber is when you cant use your military ID to get into bars. Yea I dealt with that one a few times.

Why would this be a concern to ABC? Does someone suddenly lose 5 years when a hole is punched in their CDL? If so, someone punch mine a few times:D Firearms purchases I can understand because in addition to identification it is also proof of residence.

But if it has a hole punched, then it obviously was not revoked/suspended (would have been confiscated), and that hole doesn't change a person's age or identity. You don't make the rules. But questions to ask at the next class;) Hey friend, Sorry for the late reply. So in CA, two conditions must be met to legally serve someone alcohol 1) They must be 21 or older. 2) They must have a valid ID that proves that fact. If someone is obviously of age, we don't have to card them at our own discretion and risk.

And my bar, we set the rule at 'Do they look younger than 30?' If so, we card them. If they have an expired ID, we cannot serve them, even if they are over 21. It would be against the law. If I for some reason carded a 90 year old man and it was expired, I would technically be breaking the law by giving him alcohol.

Condition 2 is the part that most people fail to understand. The CDL with a hole is a common issue.

Basically, when an ID is destroyed (hole) in any manner, it does not exist. We cannot legally use it to determine identity or age in any way. It cannot be part of the process. We are also not allowed to accept any paper identification, so when they show us the DMV slip, we have to point out on the paper where it states 'this does not establish identity for public benefits'. It's a bummer but also the law. ABC runs stings with this exact scenario.

The paper ID explicitly states it can only be used to legally drive. It's dumb that the DMV makes it so people waiting on a CDL are impossible to serve alcohol too, but with my livelihood on the line, I choose to enforce their rules to the T.

2 weeks ago I PPT'd a rifle at my LGS, but the address on my license wasn't my current address. They let me fill out the PPT paperwork using a current utility bill. In the meantime, I went to the dmv to get a new license with current address and they punched a hole in it.

I tried to pick up my gun the other day, but they would not let me with the hole punched license along with my temporary paper ID. Hurry up dmv! Mail me my license! I hope you get your new license before final pick-up date or you will have to re-DROS:eek. Many moons ago I was refused entry to a bar due to an expired DL. I was maybe 22 and went off on the bouncer mostly because I was with a work party and was very embarrassed which didn't help me look any better. To this day I think that's BS x100.

Some how I'm not 22 anymore because my DL is expired??? Yea what ever!!

I understand your logic, but what part of 'valid ID' do you not understand? The bars are required by law to demand a valid ID. When any bar weighs their liquor license against your embarrassment, you will come up short every time. The solution is not to allow your ID to expire. But what part of 'valid ID' do you not understand?

Lol, I understand the law completely. How does that make it a smart logical law? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law.

Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age. It proved my age yesterday why not today? There's likely a reason they put the valid part on the books. I just don't see a good reason for it.

Other then someone trying to use a 30yr old expired DL for ID. There should/could be exceptions to that law. I'm a contractor and I have clients all the time asking about codes and they often start out thinking many of them are stupid.

After I explain the reasons for the specific codes the light bulb often goes on and they get it. The valid ID thing, I just don't completely get the reasoning behind it as far as age goes. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON MY CHECK ENGINE LIGHT!!!!!:D. Hey friend, Sorry for the late reply.

So in CA, two conditions must be met to legally serve someone alcohol 1) They must be 21 or older. 2) They must have a valid ID that proves that fact. If someone is obviously of age, we don't have to card them at our own discretion and risk.

And my bar, we set the rule at 'Do they look younger than 30?' If so, we card them.

If they have an expired ID, we cannot serve them, even if they are over 21. It would be against the law. If I for some reason carded a 90 year old man and it was expired, I would technically be breaking the law by giving him alcohol. Condition 2 is the part that most people fail to understand. My comment is not directed against you personally Benny. But I hope you do see the ridiculousness of the above situation. I'm in my 50s, gray hair - whatever is left of it.

And so tired of the stupidity that the last two times I was asked for ID (both times for a single beer) once at a bar, the other at the supermarket. I just said nevermind and walked away. It's not the effort of reaching into my wallet for CDL, but the principle. If the behemoth alcohol companies aren't willing to work on behalf of the consumer, why reward them with business. I'm in my 50s, gray hair - whatever is left of it. And so tired of the stupidity that the last two times I was asked for ID (both times for a single beer) once at a bar, the other at the supermarket. I just said nevermind and walked away.

I've been carded twice in my life, once on my 27th birthday and once a few years ago when I was about 48. I happily handed over my ID because I wanted my beer. It's not the effort of reaching into my wallet for CDL, but the principle. If the behemoth alcohol companies aren't willing to work on behalf of the consumer, why reward them with business. This has nothing to do with behemoth alcohol companies, it's about bars and clubs and stores that in many cases have CUPs and in all cases have beer or liquor licenses that can be revoked at any moment, and so they are highly vulnerable at all times.

I am mystified how folks can demand that other people and companies risk their very existence - their incomes, their families, their retirement - for some trivial chicken**** reason when the real answer is simple: keep your ID current. I've been managing this myself for over three decades and it really is not hard to do.

Are you suggesting the law should allow invalid IDs to be used as proof? Yes How about forgeries? No, and I see what your trying to do there. I'm not buying it, I said there should be 'exceptions'.

That would not be one of them. So you're they type that feels laws should not be questioned. Fine there are those out there that think that way. I better not see you over in the legal sub forum complaining about the gun laws.

Do you have an answer as to why a once 'valid' ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age??? It's not like age can change like weight, hair color, vision, address etc. Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not. FWIW the question is not being snarky. I'm open to the fact there is a good reason why they don't allow the expired DL as proof of age. I'm just not seeing it. Do you have an answer as to why a once 'valid' ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age???

It's not like age can change like weight, hair color, vision, address etc. Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not. FWIW the question is not being snarky. I'm open to the fact there is a good reason why they don't allow the expired DL as proof of age.

I'm just not seeing it. The answer is because laws are generally supposed to be drafted so they are unambiguous. Here is Section 25660 of the California Business and Professions Code: (a) Bona fide evidence of majority and identity of the person is any of the following: (1) A document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a valid motor vehicle operator's license, that contains the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person. (2) A valid passport issued by the United States or by a foreign government. (3) A valid identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces that includes a date of birth and a picture of the person. (b) Proof that the defendant-licensee, or his or her employee or agent, demanded, was shown, and acted in reliance upon bona fide evidence in any transaction, employment, use, or permission forbidden by Section 25658, 25663, or 25665 shall be a defense to any criminal prosecution therefor or to any proceedings for the suspension or revocation of any license based thereon.

If you were God, how would you rewrite that section to ensure that people who can't be bothered to keep their IDs up to date are not ensnared by the regulations? Always get a Ca ID card when you get your license. For just such occasions. Doesn't DMV charge additional fees for CA ID card? Sounds like a good racket. Designing Programmes Karl Gerstner Pdf Free.

Maybe next year some lawmaker reading this thread can propose that: 1. DMV issue CDL for driving only. DMV issue a CA ID for proof of address (lets make that one expire annually on our birthdays so they can generate more fees for the state). Never know, one might move in the 4 year time frame between CDLs 3. DMV issue a CA ID for proof of age for alcohol purchases only.

DMV issue a CA ID for firearm purchases only. With enough ideas, we could generate a ton of fees for the state. Perhaps you should have actually handed that clerk your CCW license and used that as your Proof of Residency. And, perhaps the clerk wasn't being nosy so he didn't focus on the fact that you had a CCW exposed in your wallet (has that clerk even seen a CCW from your county/city before?) and that you were FSC-exempt and SHD-exempt. Why even have an FSC if you are already FSC-exempt, unless you got your CCW after you got the FSC?

See, you figured it out without having to be told. Arizona allows you to purchase firearms with a paper temporary license.

It also has your photo on it. What is this logic thing you speak of? Some Californians have been here so long that they no longer question anything - they just comply. When I moved to Utah they issued me a temporary paper license with my photo on it. And they punched a hole in my California license. I was thrilled. Oh my, what a concept!

First AZ and now UT! We have to stop this logic thing before it reaches CA!! 2 weeks ago I PPT'd a rifle at my LGS, but the address on my license wasn't my current address. They let me fill out the PPT paperwork using a current utility bill. In the meantime, I went to the dmv to get a new license with current address and they punched a hole in it. I tried to pick up my gun the other day, but they would not let me with the hole punched license along with my temporary paper ID.

Hurry up dmv! Mail me my license!

Out of curiosity, was that a complete recent utility bill or had you ripped of the portion used to pay the bill? Whats even dumber is when you cant use your military ID to get into bars. Yea I dealt with that one a few times.

My first thought was that you can be 18 with military ID and drinking age is 21. I have got to get out of California.I'm starting to get infected. I hope you get your new license before final pick-up date or you will have to re-DROS:eek: That would be a bummer. Lol, I understand the law completely. How does that make it a smart logical law? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law.

Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age. It proved my age yesterday why not today? There's likely a reason they put the valid part on the books. I just don't see a good reason for it.

Other then someone trying to use a 30yr old expired DL for ID. There should/could be exceptions to that law. Logic and purpose? People might start thinking instead of just complying.

We can't have that. Who knows what horrors may come of turning automatons into thinking human beings? I've been carded twice in my life, once on my 27th birthday and once a few years ago when I was about 48.

I happily handed over my ID because I wanted my beer. This has nothing to do with behemoth alcohol companies, it's about bars and clubs and stores that in many cases have CUPs and in all cases have beer or liquor licenses that can be revoked at any moment, and so they are highly vulnerable at all times. I am mystified how folks can demand that other people and companies risk their very existence - their incomes, their families, their retirement - for some trivial chicken**** reason when the real answer is simple: keep your ID current. I've been managing this myself for over three decades and it really is not hard to do. Yeah, I'm not that much of a beer drinker, so I can take it or leave it.

The alcohol companies are the ones that stand to leave money on the table. And your point about the bars, clubs and stores being highly vulnerable is all the more reason for them to push back against aspects of laws that serve no value and costs them business. I'm just as mystified as to how compliant people are to not even question the stupidity of a law that has a business carding people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s and beyond! It has zero to do with keeping ID current.

On both occasions that I walked away I had current ID on me. It's the stupidity of a law (and boy are there a lot of those - just google stupid laws). When I walked out of the bar, I went to the restaurant next door. Ordered an appetizer and a beer and magically I wasn't carded. Oh the horror!

I mean if all 50+ year olds start ordering a beer without being carded who knows the horrors that will befall our society! Yes no, and I see what your trying to do there. I'm not buying it, I said there should be 'exceptions'. That would not be one of them.

So you're they type that feels laws should not be questioned. Fine there are those out there that think that way. I better not see you over in the legal sub forum complaining about the gun laws. Do you have an answer as to why a once 'valid' ID with a hole punched in it is no longer good enough to prove age??? It's not like age can change like weight, hair color, vision, address etc. Please give a reasonable explanation as to why your ID is not a reasonable way of determining your age weather expired or not.:Yes: It's interesting to see 2A advocates that complain about gun laws when those laws don't make sense, but are totally complaint with the law in all other respects going so far as to not even question it.

How ironic that the 2A wouldn't exist if it weren't for Founding Fathers who did question the laws/rules they lived under. Of all the places I've ever lived, Californians (specially those that were born here or lived here their whole lives or 20+ years) are the most compliant and least questioning I've ever encountered - it's as if thinking or questioning is forbidden here.

People that blindly follow the law and don't question it are scary and don't know their history. Laws are just one one leg of the stool.

Morality / Integrity, Justice, Freedom are other legs that make for a strong foundation. People that rely on the law unquestioningly are the same ones that would own slaves before abolition because they base no part of their actions on morality. The same ones that remain silent when the rights of others are not equal to theirs as in the Civil Rights movement because they base no part of their actions or inactions on justice. The same ones that through their actions / inactions condone bad policy by their silence, compliance, malleability, unquestioning submission, and passive obedience thereby allowing the erosion of freedom. For some reason they'll go across town to save a nickel based on principle and rewarding good business while punishing bad business, but readily participate in the erosion of their own freedom and that of their fellow man by readily rewarding bad government policy / law through passive, submissive, unquestioning compliance.

If you were God, how would you rewrite that section WOW, you just don't get it. I/we need not be gods. Just citizens willing to speak up when the government speaks down. SECTION 1 (a) Bona fide evidence of majority and identity of the person is any of the following: (1) A document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a valid motor vehicle operator's license, that contains the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person. (2) A valid passport issued by the United States or by a foreign government.

(3) A valid identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces that includes a date of birth and a picture of the person. (b) Proof that the defendant-licensee, or his or her employee or agent, demanded, was shown, and acted in reliance upon bona fide evidence in any transaction, employment, use, or permission forbidden by Section 25658, 25663, or 25665 shall be a defense to any criminal prosecution therefor or to any proceedings for the suspension or revocation of any license based thereon. SECTION 2 If ID is to be used to determine age of card holder only, It shall not be expired or invalid more then 4 years Now that was not to hard. If the ID is good enough to show my age for 4 years when valid. It should be able to do the same thing the same length of time while invalid. They obviously don't care about the picture or if you still resemble the person on it.

I think I went 16yrs with the same photo so what other reason could there be? My comment is not directed against you personally Benny. But I hope you do see the ridiculousness of the above situation. I'm in my 50s, gray hair - whatever is left of it.

And so tired of the stupidity that the last two times I was asked for ID (both times for a single beer) once at a bar, the other at the supermarket. I just said nevermind and walked away. It's not the effort of reaching into my wallet for CDL, but the principle. If the behemoth alcohol companies aren't willing to work on behalf of the consumer, why reward them with business. I agree that it's silly, but the heavy penalties and fines that can be levied by ABC are why people are super strict. I support too many employees for me to risk being shut down for a service violation.

The ABC does stings every day of the week.it's how they get a good chunk of their operational budget. Last week I had to add a tanker endorsement to my CDL and the guy at the DMV punched a hole in my license. Yesterday I stopped by turners to 'check' out the c39v2. A new shipment just came in after being on back order for 4 months. I decided to buy it. Handing over my license I saw the hole and I was hoping they wouldn't notice but the guy did and he wouldn't let me go any further with the DROS.

I did put a deposit on the rifle and I'm hoping my license will get here soon. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk so you have no valid drivers license. And are you still driving? My birth certificate has a Mexican customs stamp on it from 1998.:facepalm: They'll just punch a hole in your SS card. Then the next time you apply for a job they'll accuse you of being here illegally. Well, my birth certificate does not have that stamp on it, and it's from well before 1988.

Ymmv I could care less what they do with my SS card; I'll never collect SS, so they can have it. I'm here legally (birth), but that seems to matter so much less these days, especially here. I'm done applying for jobs, and for that matter the baboons can have my passport, as I've travelled the world, and am done with that as well.

License?.By the time the Dems turn this entire state into a sanctuary city, my current one will expire, and I have no plans to renew. Lol, I understand the law completely. How does that make it a smart logical law? Maybe instead of saying what the law is you can explain the purpose of the law.

Why is a valid ID needed to prove my age. It proved my age yesterday why not today?

There's likely a reason they put the valid part on the books. I just don't see a good reason for it. Other then someone trying to use a 30yr old expired DL for ID. There should/could be exceptions to that law. I'm a contractor and I have clients all the time asking about codes and they often start out thinking many of them are stupid.

After I explain the reasons for the specific codes the light bulb often goes on and they get it. The valid ID thing, I just don't completely get the reasoning behind it as far as age goes. Ok, here you go. Think about this scenario. I have a younger brother or friends that looks similar to me but is under 21. My original license has expired so I give it to my brother/friend to use to get into bars.

I could do the same with a valid ID, but then I have to go and get a replacement. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON MY CHECK ENGINE LIGHT!!!!!:Dcheck engine light on means that something isnt up to acceptable standards. Even though tailpipe emissions pass, doesn't mean that everything is right.

I could have a bad gas cap or a cracked vacuum line that lets gas vapors escape when the car is off. That affects smog even though it passes a tailpipe test. Ke6 Bad argument, You're saying lets have another law to stop someone from breaking a law already on the books. Sound familiar? I see that for being a reason not to allow a person to have multiple DL but what if you don't have two, just the one you have is expired? I still have 2 of my old DL including my very first one.

I don't see why that matters. If some one breaks another law by uses it. I think some people don't understand what laws are for. You guys do understand they have nothing to do with preventing anyone from doing anything. They are on the books so the government can legally prosecute, fine you or other wise have some control.

They have nothing to do with preventing or stopping anyone from doing anything. Perhaps you should have actually handed that clerk your CCW license and used that as your Proof of Residency. And, perhaps the clerk wasn't being nosy so he didn't focus on the fact that you had a CCW exposed in your wallet (has that clerk even seen a CCW from your county/city before?) and that you were FSC-exempt and SHD-exempt. Why even have an FSC if you are already FSC-exempt, unless you got your CCW after you got the FSC? See, you figured it out without having to be told. That still doesn't' explain the fact that you could have used your CCW to satisfy both CA's Proof of Residency and federal Proof of Identity requirements if you CCW had your current address on it. Had you given the clerk your CCW, it would have dealt with the PoR/PoI issues, it would have also satisfied the FSC-requirement and shown that you wee SHD-exempt.

If I was a dealer and you handed me an FSC, why would I think you had any SHD-exemptions unless you told me? As mentioned before, clerk was being polite to not look in your wallet to see your CCW. And how much of your CCW was showing? Was that CCW issued by the same county as where you bought the gun?

Would the average clerk recognize that specific CCW design. Remember, that there is no standard for the CCW plastic ID cards (only the 'rice paper' design is standardized).